Forge Ahead in the Next Version Update! (04/18/2014)

[Ophannus]

Or just retool Super Jump so it just avoids all damage for the 5 seconds but you still have full enmity. They should have retooled A LOT of things from the 76+ cap. Many thngs are gimped when subbed like Ni and Trick Attack but they ought to have nerfed more. Everything /RDM offers is fully powered when subbed yet /WHM doesn't grant Afflatus. SCH/RDM gets full powered Phalanx and Refresh but RDM/SCH can't Accession Temper or Enspells.

[dasva]

Or just retool Super Jump so it just avoids all damage for the 5 seconds but you still have full enmity. They should have retooled A LOT of things from the 76+ cap. Many thngs are gimped when subbed like Ni and Trick Attack but they ought to have nerfed more. Everything /RDM offers is fully powered when subbed yet /WHM doesn't grant Afflatus. SCH/RDM gets full powered Phalanx and Refresh but RDM/SCH can't Accession Temper or Enspells.

I think part of that is their irrational hate of rdm and just giving it equal treatment. Either that or they really think rdm should just go back to solooing or something with all the self only non accensionable spells

[Priran]

Or just retool Super Jump so it just avoids all damage for the 5 seconds but you still have full enmity. They should have retooled A LOT of things from the 76+ cap. Many thngs are gimped when subbed like Ni and Trick Attack but they ought to have nerfed more. Everything /RDM offers is fully powered when subbed yet /WHM doesn't grant Afflatus. SCH/RDM gets full powered Phalanx and Refresh but RDM/SCH can't Accession Temper or Enspells.

They don't care about omg more strategems for SCH sub, they care about SCH main being part of strategies as a distinct entity. If a job as subbed obsoletes the job as mained, that's when SE cares. If the job as subbed just makes whoever subs it a lot better at what they do... who cares? It becomes the new norm and SE designs encounters around it.

[Sechs]

I don't really see the big problem.
1) If they thing something would be too broken for subjob, they could just disable it (sometimes it's not even a matter of it being broken, but being "job-defining", making a certain job Main feel more unique than sub)
2) They said, after the poll already started, that 100 would have been just for cosmetics and it wouldn't have granted any additional JA/trait or something like that, at which point I kinda stopped caring whatever they would end up deciding... and I think many other people felt the same.


My impression is that they've been very shortsighted. They "wasted" a very very very very rushed level cap increase with Abyssea (it would have been rushed in any other game, done that way, but particularly so in FFXI, a game that didn't see a cap increase for what, 9+ years?) in an attempt to do... what? To somehow keep people interested in the game with the least possible effort/resources expense on their side?
Shocking the audience with something "immense" like level cap increase?
I think that, honestly, it was something like that.
Seriously doubt something like Adoulin was even remotely in the plans for them at that point.

If they could turn things back I'm sure they would do it much different but what's done is done I guess.
It's interesting to note that, if I recall, Abyssea was an idea by Matsui, who created the project and the guidelines shortly before leaving to FFXIV.

[Damane]

certain main/sub combinations getting disproportionately better with a cap raise would be immediately accounted for in new content. that's not a problem, and would require virtually no effort on SE's part. what SE would be worried about would be jobs losing their usefulness or identity because their best stuff becomes subbable, which is a lot of unavoidable work trying to identify problem combinations and design satisfactory nerfs.

in the DRG example, being able to sub DRG and get Super Jump gives away one of DRG's advantages over other melee DDs. You could make a mob with faster enmity decay to offset the fact that any DD can now potentially sub DRG and dump all of their hate, but DRG's unique offering to a strategy is now basically just Angon.

sorry I cant remember the last time (years upon years ago) where i really wanted a DRG just because he could clear his enmity. If enmity and staying close to the mob is an issue its usually rngs + tank setup.

[Dotsudoku]

Giving all melee Super Jump would make it possible for tanks to tank things without rangers. That's a pretty big deal

It's literally pointless to have an actual tank if you have melee around as is

[Dotsudoku]

Velocity Shot would also be pretty gamechanging for COR. They're already fairly competitive as far as ranged damage is concerned

[FaeQueenCory]

I think the only people who would be honestly "bothered" if their REM-equivalent was easier to get than others' would be people who've got no interest in either. Which would be a lot of people, because those jobs need help. Like giving them a REM weapon.

They were given a "REM equivalent"... At least RUN was. Aettir is kinda the shit for RUN. (though I agree, GEO could use a Mythic Club that gives them an extra indi-spell.. cause I don't think the way they did geo-spells will let you have more than one bauble... much like not having more than one pet at a time.)
And what's more concerning is how likely it is that RUN's fake!mythic is gonna be an "inverse Burtgang."
+enmity, -MDT (overcap) and a enmity from taking damage reduction or something similar.
When, as anyone who has ever played RUN knows, RUN doesn't need more MDT. It mitigates magic damage by having practically a 100% resist rate. (sure MDT is good, but it's not like PLD needing MDT with Aegis. ESPECIALLY not now that runes can't be dispelled.)
But SE seems to REALLY believe that magic-only "tanking" is a thing that can be done without any hard physical damage mitigation...
So ask yourself this: is getting a free "Mythic" good when it's so crappy that it's not worth using over Aettir?

And further ask yourself: unlocking the mythic WS.
For everyone else, it's a sort of "teaser" or a thing that "holds you over" until you finish making the full thing.
But why even bother when you just get a full fake!mythic? AND did they even consider unlocking the WS? (though sure, many aren't worth unlocking... but that doesn't invalidate the fact that RUN and GEO have no Empy WS and it's VERY likely that RUN's GS will not be better than Aettir. ... unless it's a GS Burtgang, with an extra rune slot, and a hidden parry rate buff that mirrors/rivals Ochain's hidden blocking rate... then my worries would be allayed.)

What REALLY should be done is adjusting the Relics and Empyreans to have newer jobs on them.
For the life of me I have no idea why they are so adamant about not updating them with jobs? It's such simple programming! It's why we have [s]interns[/s] slaves!
This would give RUN and GEO something else to play with. As well as let all ToAU and later jobs have more to play with too. (as well as giving EVERYONE empyrean WSs)

But forcing a job which has only ever existed at 99 cap, whose AF is 99, whose relic is 109, to go back and get started on years' worth of cooldown-gated Lv.75 content before they can finally get a weapon that makes their job viable is dumb. And thinking they're going to do it is dumb, they're calling it "mythic equivalent" instead of "REM-equivalent" because mythic weapons are designed per job, not per weapon class.

It's not about going back and doing 75 content. (though TBH it's poor design to have made RUN and GEO 99only... they exist for more than those levels. not to mention that had they integrated them into pre-established systems... Adoulin wouldn't feel so isolated from the universe.)
It's about the breadth of work, effort, and time demanded.

Using the relic for example:
Non-RUN/GEO: Spend up to 2hr a day for any myriad number of days depending on your luck. (I once spent a whole week trying for sam kote... but... no avail, so I said fuck it.)
Then go and either: 1) farm out what's necessary to +1 it, then get the 30 forgotten pieces for the +2, then spend 20k exp augmenting it, then go do a 20SKCNM for the 5pgs you need to 109 it.
2) farm out what's necessary to +1 it, then get the 30 forgotten pieces for the +2, then go do some 20SKCNM for the 10pgs you need to 109 it.
3) get the 50 forgotten pieces for the +2, then spend 20k exp augmenting it, then go do a 20SKCNM for the 5pgs you need to 109 it.
4) get the 50 forgotten pieces for the +2, then go do some 20SKCNM for the 10pgs you need to 109 it.
5) farm out what's necessary to +1 it, farm up/buy 100 w/e ancient currency pieces, then go do some 20SKCNM for the 10pgs you need to 109 it.
6) farm up/buy 200 w/e ancient currency pieces, then go do some 20SKCNM for the 10pgs you need to 109 it.
(I think that covers all the possible paths)
RUN/GEO: Either trade some synths you either made yourself or bought from the AH for a few 10-100k; or trade a single synth item and 100k bayld.
These are NOT comparable.
Not in the slightest.
And this is why I worry that RUN and GEO will just get a Mythic for "free".

Likely to be a REM equivalent. It probably won't have an AM with oa2-3 but will have a unique ws a job specific buff and high stats and maybe a unique aftermath. Requirements could be:

1) 1 million Bayld
2) Max rank in every coalition and every assignment cleared(possibly required to reclear ala the assault notebook type shit.
3) have titles from 5/5/5 clears from every skirmish area
4) all delve clear titles
5) all delve boss KI's in your inventory
6) all the paragons in your inventory
7) 100 of EACH of the following: gabbrath horn, rockfin tooth, and the other expensive delve boss synth mats.
8) cleared all the phantom gem battlefields in VD with the title
9) completed all the RoE trials
10) 200 job points

Do all that and you get the new mythic great sword or mythic bell lol. How's that for tedious/expensive?

Bold is nonAdoulin stuff.
But that WOULD be comparable... ish... though I feel that the 100 Delve MB items is too much.
I don't believe that they will ever do that....
(what I expect is... well... I'm not sure what to expect. The stupid ease of getting 5/5 fake!relic... I just don't know anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if it had the new 119 JSEs as part of the synths...)

[Foldypaws]

Giving all melee Super Jump would make it possible for tanks to tank things without rangers. That's a pretty big deal

It's literally pointless to have an actual tank if you have melee around as is

Well, it would make it possible for you to have melees and a tank *if* the mob didn't have damaging AoE. Because on *most* of the things you really want RNG + PLD for, the issue is AoE, not just hate shifting.

[Sechs]

And this is why I worry

I still don't get why you worry.
What is exactely worrying about that?
The "unfairness" of two jobs getting something handed to them in a much easier way than other jobs?
Yes, so what?
I've seen much worse things happen in this game, like what happened to REM at SoA launch and stayed like that for over 6 months. At first we weren't even guaranteed REMs would have get an update at all, it came after all the (rightful) whinestorm.

I seriously doubt GEO and RUN will get "free" mythics. It will likely be much easier than current mythics but I bet it will still take quite some dedication to get completed.
It will be easier than the others, so what? I really don't see what is worrying you.
I would understand, and completely share, your concerns if we were talking about 2008 FFXI, now something like this happening in THAT game with THAT playerbase and THAT balance would have bothered me a lot.
But in the current game? Is it really such a problem? I don't think it will really change anything in either way, honestly.

[Priran]

I don't "worry" RUN gets an easy mythic that's really awesome and makes the job a whole lot better, I hope it does. If RUN was a DD I could understand people bitching if it got mythic-tier damage more easily than anybody else, but it isn't. It's a third-rate tank, and the game could use a decent tank class without PLD's absurd barrier to entry of at least 2 rmes.

sorry I cant remember the last time (years upon years ago) where i really wanted a DRG just because he could clear his enmity. If enmity and staying close to the mob is an issue its usually rngs + tank setup.

that's on you? it's pretty good on AAs.

[Damane]

I don't "worry" RUN gets an easy mythic that's really awesome and makes the job a whole lot better, I hope it does. If RUN was a DD I could understand people bitching if it got mythic-tier damage more easily than anybody else, but it isn't. It's a third-rate tank, and the game could use a decent tank class without PLD's absurd barrier to entry of at least 2 rmes.

that's on you? it's pretty good on AAs.

and you think a WAR/DRG with super jump is gonna survive some of the AAs heavy AoE damage without shadows on D or VD? As I said, the issue is non existence of makeing it unbalanced, you give something from an other subjob up to sub a particular sub.

[Damane]

Velocity Shot would also be pretty gamechanging for COR. They're already fairly competitive as far as ranged damage is concerned

Velocity shot wouldnt make COR that much gamebreaking at all. RNGs nowaday only work becaus of decoy shot. COR has significant hate issues in ranged combat, Velocity shot would make COR competitiv to some degree to ranger, but it wouldnt never allow them to come on equal footing just because of decoy shot.

allowing other mages to benefit from Afflatus solace wouldnt make them better then whm either in the healing the department, it would close the gap, but I would give up alot of debuffs and buffs on SCH fro going from /RDM to /WHM. People make such a big deal of tiny things, its mindblowing. NOTHING would be much OP at all. Mages and Melees have gotten allready most of the best Subjob abilitys when the lvl cap hit lvl 90. The others all well beyond lvl 60 and up.

[Priran]

and you think a WAR/DRG with super jump is gonna survive some of the AAs heavy AoE damage without shadows on D or VD? As I said, the issue is non existence of makeing it unbalanced, you give something from an other subjob up to sub a particular sub.

On AAs like TT, MR, HM no. On some other fights (little zilart brother springs to mind) yes.

[Fwahm]

If they fulltimed PDT, I could see a good WHM being able to keep a single melee alive against HM and MR if they never took hate. Same for GK. Only TT and EV could instant kill shot with magic/WS combos or Arrogance Incarnate.

On another note, I think Super Jump would also be useful on healers in hate reset fights, like Wopket and Kam'lanaut.

[NynJa]

I dont see how SJ affects survivability on EV considering Arrogance bypasses utsu completely.

TT doesnt cast any offensive GA spells either, atleast not on normal, unless you count meteor.

[dasva]

They don't care about omg more strategems for SCH sub, they care about SCH main being part of strategies as a distinct entity. If a job as subbed obsoletes the job as mained, that's when SE cares. If the job as subbed just makes whoever subs it a lot better at what they do... who cares? It becomes the new norm and SE designs encounters around it.

So you mean like they did to rdm and haven't given 2 shits about?

[shepardG]

Really? lol

Did he really just do that? rofl!

[Shenrien]

though I feel that the 100 Delve MB items is too much.
I don't believe that they will ever do that....

Through all your babbling I found this. 100 delve MB is too much and you would never believe they would do such a thing? Did anyone ever believe they would add 1,000 1,500 2,000 2,500 relic WS kill shots that until the Lv.85 versions were available had to be done solo?

This is Square-Enix we're talking about here, not some magical fantasy MMORPG creating god tier company that knows how to treat its community with proper content that isn't too grindy, but still grindy enough to keep them coming back for more.

[Damane]

On AAs like TT, MR, HM no. On some other fights (little zilart brother springs to mind) yes.

I still dont see the issue why super jump would make things too OP. You still need the gear to back up various situations and its not gonna work on everything.

I dont see how SJ affects survivability on EV considering Arrogance bypasses utsu completely.

TT doesnt cast any offensive GA spells either, atleast not on normal, unless you count meteor.

who cares for normal modes?